戀愛切勿求印證

以下一宗事件,真人真事,我說出來,預左少幾個 friends。

一神學生,與大他數載之師姐相戀。神學生者,大多敬虔之人,所以踏出戀愛,必先祈禱求問,尋求印證等,並得牧長良朋祝福,才展開愛情。兩人之戀情,亦如這樣,男女均有祈禱中見到對方是共諧連理之對象,而且小心行事,慢慢開始。二人之戀,盡得人稱道,原因是,單身女傳道,其實要出池(pool)甚難,能在中年覓得情郎,實在是蒙了大恩。

長話短說,轉眼幾個寒暑,二人之關係已定下來,眾人都問女生,何時拉埋天窗。女的卻擠出愁眉,說男的沒表示。其時女的已開始牧會,男的在神學院,已沒起初的生澀,漸漸成熟穩重,在同學間成為領袖,帶領同學們一同親近上主。

如上所述,女傳道很難覓偶,女神學生,其實是在刀口邊緣,幾年學習又苦悶,所以,神學院其實造就不少戀情。而學院中的單身男生,正值壯年,又屬靈,絕對不愁沒女友。如是者,故事的男生,漸漸和一師妹走近,一同靈修、祈禱、分擔生命中的難處。師妹,青春可人,陽光活力,平易近人,二人簡直一發不可收拾。

結果,亦是非常 predictable 的。男生和女朋友分手,然後旋即和師妹開始。中間具體的過程,不值得提,我只想講,男的在分手之時,提出的原因是「我在異象中見的伴侶,是另一個她」

幾年前的異象是她,幾年後,變了另一個她?wtf? 會不會幾年後又變呢?用異象來做分手原因,低莊之極,是典型的擺上帝上枱,是屈神氏。這個男,絕對是有辱上主,而且有辱學院門楣。

至於被分手的女生,她在分手後也有奇遇。她傷心欲絕,身邊的代禱者當然為她禱告,安慰。一代禱者領受異象,堅稱「那男生是神命定給妳的伴侶,要有信心等下去呀!」女的聽到代禱者的異象,心裡七上八落的,以為是考驗云云,傷完再傷。

被飛的,是在下好友,我聽到代禱者如此「異象」,勃然大怒,立即喝住朋友,叫她別信妖言。同場的朋友們(個個都係傳道)無一異口同聲叫她別信代禱者的異象。

我的結論是,在戀愛的事上,千萬別拿上帝出來。不要求問神,絕對不要。原因是,在戀愛中的人,對於祈禱的答覆相當主觀,主觀到一個地步,會騙了自己而不自知。屬靈人拍拖,不因異象而思遷,但會委身於伴侶。在下結婚前後,不少人問我怎樣知道他就是神所命定,在下一概答:我不知道。

知道又點?咪多個藉口給你埋怨神。關係不好,就賴上帝「乜你賜個咁嘅人俾我」。我,和伴侶,兩人決定,結婚是我們自己的選擇,我們為自己的關係負責。如果要屬靈一點,我會說,是上帝加力讓我們頂住婚姻中無數的 un-ding-able moments.

63 thoughts on “戀愛切勿求印證

  1. 好正!! 我冇把握講神會唔會命定一個人作為另一個人既配偶, 我只係肯定, 無論係幾屬靈既人, 都總會有極乞人憎既一面, 深切需要神的憐憫的……

    大把人正如你所講, 溝人既時候就異象前異象後, 到左要飛人既時候又口口聲聲話想”留返多D時間親近神”, 所以話, 衰起上黎, 我地基督徒真係可以衰過人渣 😦

    1. 係呀,我好怕人異象前異象後的。中意就中意,適合就適合。如果對自己對對方的愛沒把握,要靠個「異象」溝人,咁都係算啦。

      1. 陳傳道, 想問一句, 第七段你所指朋友們的反應, 是”無一異口同聲”, 定係”無不異口同聲”?

        因為意思完全唔同, 我想得個知字~謝謝~

      1. 千萬定係切勿?
        千萬「別」拿上帝出來 = 千祈咪擺上帝出來
        千萬拿上帝出來。=記得擺上帝出來

        不過我同意你講, 求問完再拍拖, 萬一又遇人不淑的話就走去賴上帝,
        真係無聊至極。

  2. 多數人祈禱的真實目的是找上帝confirm自己的喜好吧, 多過「尋求神心意」
    我又覺得未必never mention god 的, 反而是大家都祈下禱, 比多d時間認識自己, 認識對方, 再決定係咪開始實際d

      1. 咁易教得壞,就好嘞。你要知道,被迷信所誤,三日;解毒,三年。看來,我還有很長時間要關心你呢。

  3. 有本書叫boy meets girl (Joshua Harris) 同你這篇文章所講既完全相反,我教會仲拎佢黎做主日學教材添。拍拖佢話問過神心意之後仲要討好埋女方家人,得佢地同意先可以真正拍拖,拍拖年數不能少於兩年才可結婚,我眼見有個弟兄唔知係咪比呢本書洗左腦,同佢曖昧既女仔真係比佢玩死

      1. 我教會既唔少人, 包括傳道人, 都會介紹呢本書, 連我自己都介紹過…
        如果你可以詳細講下本書既觀點問題所在, 對好多人應該都好有用。

  4. “never mention god”?
    As a Christian and a paster, your job is to lead people to God in their daily lives in spirit and truth. I am very sad and concerned when you lead people away from God instead.

      1. why bother?!
        He said he was concerned!
        He seems to be a compassionate person, do you understand humanity?

      2. 信仰不经过考验,反思;天天都有跌倒的机会,被bother下,米知什么叫你信下去啦,!不要再做「愚夫」,有反省能力的基督是「我知我所信的是谁!」。题目:可叫「恋爱切勿单求引证,小心被骗」^_^

  5. 個人認為,文中那位弟兄用”異象”和”上帝” 來做分手的理由,其實非常合理。

    試想一下,有什麼理由比”上帝”更能令人難以反駁?難道要親口說自己不夠喜歡對方或已經喜歡上別人,令自己變成醜人嗎?如此不顧自身聲譽(作為基督徒)的行為,我們是絕對不鼓勵的。

    更何況,當初一起的時候已經出動了”上帝”,如果分手的時候用一個比”上帝”低層次的理由去解釋分手,就會被認為是違反神的旨意,所以還有什麼比再搬一次”上帝”出來更具說服力?

    因此,請大家不要再為難這位弟兄了。他做的一切都非常符合自身利益。

    1. 而顧及自身利益和自身名譽就是基督徒首要任務,因為我們的行為就代表神,我們的聲譽就是神的聲譽,而上帝就是我們的盾牌,聖哉聖哉,阿門。

    2. 你是在講反話諷刺那位弟兄嗎?如果我是被佢玩殘的姊妹,我會決定不再信神,因為這個神昨日今日是不一樣的,祂不是永恆信實的,我怎能繼續信祂?我們已經有一個昨日今日不一樣的特首,真的不想再有一個昨日今日不一樣的神了。

  6. 用了錯的方法領受。
    這種「異象」、禱告,沒有足夠的清心,聆聽是很危險的,很容易混淆了「內心的渴望」和「聖靈的提醒」這兩者。
    更嚴重的是,現代教㑹對信徒戀愛觀上太多沒有基礎的教㑹傳統教導,而將這些傳統一律視為聖經原則。
    禱告沒有聆聽基礎,譯經基礎與傳統混淆,這信徒跟從上主的兩大基石被破壞,這點導致了今天教㑹在處理戀愛方面引致了很多傷害。

    1. 我想提出的論點,就是戀愛會讓人「心不清」,禱告流於主觀。我想,就算是平日素有訓練之信徒,心如鹿撞時,也難免會五內翻騰,清心搞渾。

      1. 不妨比D正面信息指教一下,好過你喺度唱人笑人,除非呢D先係你正式工作…

      2. RE CLAY

        講出有咩問題就已經夠啦, 我去插一個issue有問題唔代表我一定要識哂嗰樣野先有資格出聲。

        我唔覺得作為一個成年人, 係會無聊到單純地為左”笑人唱人先會出個post

  7. 非常同意筆者頭七段的分享,特別是擺上帝上枱的不負責行為,畢竟「屈神氏」的信徒生態令人把生活上所有的事情都歸咎於上帝的安排,即係「唔關我事」。但筆者在第八段說戀愛的事流於主觀,因此不要求問神,絕對不要,這樣走到了另一極端也是危險的,試問生活上有那些決定不是主觀的?97前買樓的「屈神氏」可能會埋怨上帝給他「負資產」的試煉,但按照筆者意思反其道而行,那麼我們的生活還需要上帝的參與嗎?筆者認為兩個極端中可以找到一個平衡點嗎?

    1. 在下於上面的回應稍提過了,我是刻意這樣寫的,是故意誇大。我反對用過份主觀的領受來處理求偶問題,因為領受牽涉上主啟示,是不能隨意的。隨意訴諸領受,就是屈神,絕不可。而所謂求問,為的是要得指引,考慮客觀因素,及承擔個人責任,比「聽到聽音」來得緊要。

      1. 「我們的生活還需要上帝的參與嗎?」筆者還未回答這個問題。另外好奇問句︰「筆者的神學思路主要是那一套?

      2. 參,點解唔參呀?
        但參與的方法,不一定是用「求問」的。若果上帝在我們生命中只充當一個「答案」,那相當可悲。聖經已經把當行的路指教世人,熟路的人,不用下下問路的。

        無派。但我中意田立克。

      3. 上帝是你的僕人嗎?你憑什麼命令衪參與你的事?還是你把主僕角色倒轉了?應該是你參與上帝的計劃,對嗎?

      4. 所要不要再問「我們的生活還要上帝參與嗎」,這樣會鑽牛角尖,終究成為自我中心的信徒。在任何事上作決定也好,與其守株待兔,日日「求神拜佛」問下一步應點做,不如諗下若你以基督的心為中心你會點做仲好啦。踏實一點,多點反思,好過有日發左個春夢以為自己見到異象。

  8. 咁教會的事工呢?!我也常見到求印證的情況出現,要有某個事工就話有印證要有某個事工,要沒有某個事工,於是開個天價要求出嚟,若這個天價要求達得到,咁就係上帝要我哋做啦!之後,當然達不到要求啦!於是就話,上帝不喜歡這個事工…一句講晒,就係佢講晒!

  9. whenever you think you know better than others, you might actually know NOTHING. Every person is an individual, you can say the guy put on a bad excuse on the breakup, but you are not him, you can’t accuse him of lying?! If he lies about his feeling and stays with the person he doesn’t love, don’t you think it s even worse?! do you think the gal is actually lucky that she found out in two years, not 10, not after she married him and had his kids?! you gotta relax, have faith and believe things happen for a reason!!

    1. Don’t know where are your stance about you judging others judging others, but I find it most amusing. Just saying.

      By the way, I wanted to say that your points does not stand. Appealing to ignorance is dangerous and more importantly irrelevant. What exactly does “you might not know everything” has to do with the guy dumping girlfriend by reason of receiving instruction/vision from God? DoChan is mainly criticizing the moral corruption of individuals whom use God as an excuse to pretty much any wrongdoing we may have committed.

      So what if I go ahead and murder someone in cold blood and say I have received vision form God. Apparently in this case, you can’t say much, can you. Because as you have said, people “gotta relax”, have faith and believe things happen for a reason?

      Perhaps I went into unimaginable extremes here. So let me hypothesize something more tangible. Suppose what you say is true, and say couple years down the road you have found out as the guy in question did not break up with his girlfriend, and as you say, married with offspring, and consequently have committed adultery by having an affair with another person.

      And when DoChan (or others) confronted him the guy proceed to say its “God’s vision that I received which lead me to my actions”. What would you say by then? “you gotta relax and have faith and believe things happen for a reason?” Again?

      Indeed you can look at it in a positive light and say its better for the girl realizing her boyfriend does not love her anymore-before its too late. Yet this is rather a completely different issue altogether. As far as I can tell DoChan is cautioning to us the dangers of believers employing God as an all-purpose rationale to excuse themselves from wrongdoing.

      I believe the issue here is claiming responsibility where it counts. You can’t just say God is involved (how do you know, God told you personally? are you “hearing voices”?) and so it becomes your excuse in wrongdoing. Sin is sin no matter how you say it, and we have to pay for it. Moreover, its just outright wrong include God when you sin. Are you actually blaming God allow you to sin because its in his will that (god forbid!) *caused* you to sin?

      We indeed are thankful that Christ died for us and the sin we have committed indeed does no longer counted on our heads. Does that mean we get an “get out of jail free” pass? Something for you to think about. I usually don’t write tl;dr’s on other people’s boards. Its bordering hijacking threads and I apologize here. I am Sorry. but your kind of argument are so prevalent in our generation whom employ such liberal stance interpreting God’s will as your will (at least when in dodging responsibility) so I decided to pitch in and throw in my two cents here. Or a couple thousand words of text.

      Regardless, cheers.

      1. 多謝 Richard 兄的洞見, 很清晰的闡述!

        陳傳道, 他主要是替你重申文字本身的立場, 你本身寫文的原意是想說明我們不應將由一己私慾而生的行為訴諸於甚麼異象啟示, 然後使之合理法並推卸責任, 就正如你原文中提及的那位人兄的行為一樣。自己決定做的事, 自己負上責任, 不應輸打贏要。

        Richard 兄 的大概意思是反駁SD 的”relax”論, 認為其立場本身是將問題以麻木態度面對之, 是無知也是不怡當的 (Richard 兄, 有錯請指正!)

      2. Richard也指出了SD犯了邏輯上的謬誤「appealing to ignorance」,既然没人知道究竟那「分手男」是不是看見了或聽到了異象,那SD的論點「you know nothing」是没有理據支持。

        另外Richard也指出人不能以「relax, have faith and believe things happen for a reason」成為基督徒不為自己所做的不負責,他也指出這樣的錯誤思想正在這個年代非常流行以致他忍無可忍,把責任推御到上帝裡去使人無視自己的罪的嚴重性,把救恩當做「免獄通行証」。神在每一刻都參與我們的生活與我們犯罪無關(意指有神參與不等於人没錯),因此再引申出我們做錯事怪罪的只有自己,不能怪神。

      3. @Slaves…I don’t think the guy who broke up with the lady has blamed on God. You guys are the ones who accused him to use God as an excuse. I am sorry, Slaves, you seems to be the one who is “appealing to ignorance”. For whatever reasons, he was not happy with that lady. Maybe it was his own subconscious leaded him to hear God message, but he thinks God has given him assurance and courage to make that decision. Breaking up with someone is totally different from committing a sin like killing, yes?! It doesn’t matter if you are young or old, take some times, pray to God for help whenever you need it. The lady might thank that man for breaking up with her years later! Not only her but also anyone who faces some disappointments in life should relax, have faith, and believe things happened for a reason. What was done is done, we move forward… that is why God is here with all of us. I apologize if I have offended anyone here by airing my opinion on this article. God bless!
        p.s. if you guys are friends of her, you should pray with her and celebrate a new beginning she is having; she deserves someone right for her too. It doesn’t matter who is right n who is wrong: it s about time to care what is important to her life, that man will be the last one on her list.

      4. 分手事已故,没錯不能追究誰對誰錯,但重點是其他基督徒有没有從事件中汲取教訓,若有信徒明白「戀愛切勿求印證」,那這篇文章、陳傳道、甚至故事主角,都造就了人,這才是真正的恩典。

        “relax, have faith, believe things happen for reason” 並不是基督教神學之觀點,卻有點像彿教的因果論,建議SD去研究什麼才是「神的旨意」以及要明白清楚祈禱的目的,不要「看」的是聖經,去的是教堂,信的卻是自己,這是得危險。God Bless!

      5. @slaves, i don’t know what is your 神的旨意, but it s alright as soon as it makes your a better person, have compassion on others, as soon as it is something you can apply on your daily so that you have a more content and peaceful life. A label or a name means nothing if there is no content, hope you agree.

  10. 呢啲乜事都求引證的教導,除沒有聖經根據之外,更讓人有機會假借神的權威行自己的心意,根本就是妄稱神的名,絕對是壞鬼神學!

  11. “我的結論是,在戀愛的事上,千萬別拿上帝出來。不要求問神,絕對不要。原因是,在戀愛中的人,對於祈禱的答覆相當主觀,主觀到一個地步,會騙了自己而不自知。屬靈人拍拖,不因異象而思遷,但會委身於伴侶。在下結婚前後,不少人問我怎樣知道他就是神所命定,在下一概答:我不知道。”

    I understand you are trying to ask people not to use God as an excuse. However, personal views aside, is it really the best path to not ask God? People doing what they want isn’t exactly a lifestyle promoted by the Bible, is it? If the mistake is lying to oneself unknowingly, is the answer to compound the mistake by not asking?

    1. 「原因是,在戀愛中的人,對於祈禱的答覆相當主觀,主觀到一個地步,會騙了自己而不自知。」is the main point. If you’re sure of yourself that you won’t be subjective to what you think you have received from your pray, then it’s okay to ask God. Otherwise, don’t push yourself asking. After all, asking God is not the only solution. For instance, simply observe what happens in your romance experience and learn from it can do well too. It’s also one of God’s ways to inspire the person.

      Well, I guess what DoChan means is that not asking God does not necessarily imply refusing God. There are many possibilities among, especially when talking about 戀愛問題.

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